I am in the throws of completing an engine rebuild on my Clifton 1861 cc engine
Please can someone advise me on the torque setting for the cylinder head.
Thank you
Clive K.
Torque setting
Re: Torque setting
Clive,
The Austin Service Journal Jan 1939 states "550 in lbs for 3/8" studs" for the Big Seven, Ten, Twelve, Fourteen and Eighteen"
Not sure whether that applies to the heavy 12/4 but the figure may be somewhat high for an old block and a figure 10 to 20% less might be wiser say 35 to 40 ft lbs. tightening from centre out a bit at a time on each stud with several circuits.
I am sure that there are other people who are better able to comment than me and maybe they will in due course
David
The Austin Service Journal Jan 1939 states "550 in lbs for 3/8" studs" for the Big Seven, Ten, Twelve, Fourteen and Eighteen"
Not sure whether that applies to the heavy 12/4 but the figure may be somewhat high for an old block and a figure 10 to 20% less might be wiser say 35 to 40 ft lbs. tightening from centre out a bit at a time on each stud with several circuits.
I am sure that there are other people who are better able to comment than me and maybe they will in due course
David
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vintage124
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:40 pm
Re: Torque setting
David
Thank you for your input, it is much appreciated.
I was once told that cylinder head nuts should be tightened "by a big man with a 12" spanner", 35 - 40 lbs ft sounds better and will be much more consistent !
Gently does it.
Kind regards
Clive.
Thank you for your input, it is much appreciated.
I was once told that cylinder head nuts should be tightened "by a big man with a 12" spanner", 35 - 40 lbs ft sounds better and will be much more consistent !
Gently does it.
Kind regards
Clive.
Re: Torque setting
Hello Clive
I have a 20 rather than a 12 but it uses 3/8" BSF studs just the same. I have just put the head back on (again but that's another story!) and done the nuts up to my usual 45lbs. I think that's the maximum safe level. Of course I'm using new 'T' grade studs and new nuts so you may want to err on side of caution and drop to 40lbs if you are using original studs. Speaking from experience, if you decide to replace studs and nuts, get them from an engineer's suppliers rather than use the chocolate studs and plasticine nuts as supplied from VAR stores.
Best wishes
Martin
I have a 20 rather than a 12 but it uses 3/8" BSF studs just the same. I have just put the head back on (again but that's another story!) and done the nuts up to my usual 45lbs. I think that's the maximum safe level. Of course I'm using new 'T' grade studs and new nuts so you may want to err on side of caution and drop to 40lbs if you are using original studs. Speaking from experience, if you decide to replace studs and nuts, get them from an engineer's suppliers rather than use the chocolate studs and plasticine nuts as supplied from VAR stores.
Best wishes
Martin
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vintage124
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:40 pm
Re: Torque setting
Martin
Thank you for your advice.
I am using old studs and have cleaned the threads with a die nut.
I purchased new nuts from an engineering supply company.
As I said, 35 - 40 lbs ft, gently does it !!!!
Regards
Clive.
Thank you for your advice.
I am using old studs and have cleaned the threads with a die nut.
I purchased new nuts from an engineering supply company.
As I said, 35 - 40 lbs ft, gently does it !!!!
Regards
Clive.
Re: Torque setting
I was interested in Martins reply regarding the VAR Plasticine nuts and bolts?I have completed two block rebuilds using VAR studs and nuts and have had no problems.
Regarding torque settings. I pull the head down to 40ft/lb, and finishing at 45ft/lb. This is on a long stroke engine.
Its worth noting that when you have left the head for an hour or so you can often pull the head down a couple of lbs more, also after a few miles run check torque settings again.
I doubt you would get correct threaded cylinder head studs from an engineers supplier. I source numerous parts for car and steam engine projects using major suppliers in Sheffield, none can supplier 12/4 cylinder head studs off stock. However with the correct bar I can if I wish thread them myself on a lathe,but not with a die.They need to be cut using the lath to get the correct profile and finish. Dies are useful in an emergency or for cleaning a thread.
Martin.Have you mentioned the quality problem to Steve Newton? Steve is well on top of any quality issues, but does need to be told the problems with the studs or any other VAR part.
Mike Egg
Regarding torque settings. I pull the head down to 40ft/lb, and finishing at 45ft/lb. This is on a long stroke engine.
Its worth noting that when you have left the head for an hour or so you can often pull the head down a couple of lbs more, also after a few miles run check torque settings again.
I doubt you would get correct threaded cylinder head studs from an engineers supplier. I source numerous parts for car and steam engine projects using major suppliers in Sheffield, none can supplier 12/4 cylinder head studs off stock. However with the correct bar I can if I wish thread them myself on a lathe,but not with a die.They need to be cut using the lath to get the correct profile and finish. Dies are useful in an emergency or for cleaning a thread.
Martin.Have you mentioned the quality problem to Steve Newton? Steve is well on top of any quality issues, but does need to be told the problems with the studs or any other VAR part.
Mike Egg
Re: Torque setting
I agree with Mike on torque settings. I go to 45 lb-ft and then run the engine at a fast idle to achieve full working temperature, continually checking torques. When things appear to have stabilised I go for a 15 mile run and check again, when I can usually get a bit more. Repeat the run until no further movement on the nuts. I can usually get at least half a turn in total from the first tightening.
On the plasticine studs I admit to having developed a somewhat jaundiced view of the VAR spares situation over the years, in regard to both quality and range available. I will have to watch my language here or I might risk this post being deleted or even being banned from the forum!
The last radiator hoses I bought for the 20 came from Willie Mackenzie (poor quality, no reinforcement) and when the VAR took over Willies stock I expected hoses to be available from VAR. No such luck! We need to persuade somebody like Auto Silicone Hoses in Mirfield to produce matt black cloth finished silicone moulded hoses for us. Unlike natural rubber, silicone rubber does not bond itself to the radiator spigots, dismantles easily and can be reused time and again.
I stand by my comments on head studs. The studs in question came from VAR in 2009 when Ken Davies was the spares man. The supplier may have changed since then so current stock may (or may not) be better. The studs supplied to me at that time were hopeless and were thrown into the scrap bin in disgust. I will try to fish an example out to show Mike when next I see him.
I do agree with Mike when he says you cannot obtain studs from an engineering supplier which are an exact fit for Austins. However something very close can be had from WDS Component Parts Ltd. in Pudsey (http://www.wdsltd.co.uk). Their part number 405-114 is in EN16T, the correct length of thread into the block, correct length of plain shank, but longer than needed top thread. Quality I would describe as excellent. They just need shortening a bit. Please don't just chop them off with a hacksaw. Radius the tops by filing/grinding/turning to match the originals. They look so much better.
Martin
On the plasticine studs I admit to having developed a somewhat jaundiced view of the VAR spares situation over the years, in regard to both quality and range available. I will have to watch my language here or I might risk this post being deleted or even being banned from the forum!
The last radiator hoses I bought for the 20 came from Willie Mackenzie (poor quality, no reinforcement) and when the VAR took over Willies stock I expected hoses to be available from VAR. No such luck! We need to persuade somebody like Auto Silicone Hoses in Mirfield to produce matt black cloth finished silicone moulded hoses for us. Unlike natural rubber, silicone rubber does not bond itself to the radiator spigots, dismantles easily and can be reused time and again.
I stand by my comments on head studs. The studs in question came from VAR in 2009 when Ken Davies was the spares man. The supplier may have changed since then so current stock may (or may not) be better. The studs supplied to me at that time were hopeless and were thrown into the scrap bin in disgust. I will try to fish an example out to show Mike when next I see him.
I do agree with Mike when he says you cannot obtain studs from an engineering supplier which are an exact fit for Austins. However something very close can be had from WDS Component Parts Ltd. in Pudsey (http://www.wdsltd.co.uk). Their part number 405-114 is in EN16T, the correct length of thread into the block, correct length of plain shank, but longer than needed top thread. Quality I would describe as excellent. They just need shortening a bit. Please don't just chop them off with a hacksaw. Radius the tops by filing/grinding/turning to match the originals. They look so much better.
Martin
Re: Torque setting
Hello Martin.
At the PWA7C/ VAR joint meeting at Barlborough last week, I think we agreed that we did have a problem with quality control.
We now have in Steve Newton a particularly fastidious spares secretary. Steve is a retired Rolls Royce man, having worked for them at Derby and at their Marine division in Sweden. Steve with Tom TItterton now visit potential manufactures of VAR spares to set the standard that we want for our projects and spares.The 12/4 cylinder block project is a good example of the personal input that is needed.
The initial impetus of member Edward Townsend, who put in a tremendous effort to start up this project, to Steve and Tom following it through with the foundry and machine shop proves that with the right people in place we can set good standards.
Austin spares from none VAR sources,we have no control over. However we do need to be vigilante and contact Steve if we feel something is not right with the spares we receive.
At the PWA7C/ VAR joint meeting at Barlborough last week, I think we agreed that we did have a problem with quality control.
We now have in Steve Newton a particularly fastidious spares secretary. Steve is a retired Rolls Royce man, having worked for them at Derby and at their Marine division in Sweden. Steve with Tom TItterton now visit potential manufactures of VAR spares to set the standard that we want for our projects and spares.The 12/4 cylinder block project is a good example of the personal input that is needed.
The initial impetus of member Edward Townsend, who put in a tremendous effort to start up this project, to Steve and Tom following it through with the foundry and machine shop proves that with the right people in place we can set good standards.
Austin spares from none VAR sources,we have no control over. However we do need to be vigilante and contact Steve if we feel something is not right with the spares we receive.
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Arabella_12
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:25 pm
Re: Torque setting
I'm interested in t his, as I've recently had the head off my long stroke 12/4 (twice!), and in both cases torqued it down to 36/37 lb/ft. I'm wary of more, having stripped threads on my Riley Nine (which has weedy little studs...) I shall tweak it up a but more now. Just to put in a plug for the VAR spares scheme, Steve Newton has been immensely helpful, very prompt in despatch - and the studs he supplied last year have been fine to date.
But no amount of torque will join non-flat surfaces! I had the head skimmed during the engine rebuild last winter - and they had to take nearly 15thou off it to get an even face. But stupidly I didn't have the head of the block skimmed at the same time - nor the BASE of same: a second top-end strip showed the top face of the block to be several thou out, ( 'pulled up' round the studs), and also the base (which no amount of new base gaskets plus goo would stop leaking) to have pulled down, where the base studs went through it. The gasket showed a small blow between No. 2 and 3 cylinders, which had been there for years, and the refacing of head alone had obviously failed to cure.
So top and base of the block were lightly machined: and the gratifying result of all this surface flattening is no oil leaks from the base of the block - and a significantly increased power output (it wasn't bad before!) Good result.
But no amount of torque will join non-flat surfaces! I had the head skimmed during the engine rebuild last winter - and they had to take nearly 15thou off it to get an even face. But stupidly I didn't have the head of the block skimmed at the same time - nor the BASE of same: a second top-end strip showed the top face of the block to be several thou out, ( 'pulled up' round the studs), and also the base (which no amount of new base gaskets plus goo would stop leaking) to have pulled down, where the base studs went through it. The gasket showed a small blow between No. 2 and 3 cylinders, which had been there for years, and the refacing of head alone had obviously failed to cure.
So top and base of the block were lightly machined: and the gratifying result of all this surface flattening is no oil leaks from the base of the block - and a significantly increased power output (it wasn't bad before!) Good result.
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Humphrey47
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:46 pm
Re: Torque setting
Having trouble with 1/4" BSF piston clamp bolts as one has just sheared off. There is an R stamp on the head which I understands means ht. They are also zinc plated. It was not possible to drill out with the piston in place, so I had to press the pin out, shearing the offending bolt.
The spanner was a short ring, no more than 5" long.
The spanner was a short ring, no more than 5" long.